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PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan's last interview. "The only way is
war"! |
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: The Middle East magazine, April 1999; Le point,
16 Janvier 1999 - Havlo Blog |
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PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan's last interview. "The
only way is war"!
25.5.2007
The Middle East magazine, April 1999. Le point, 16
Janvier 1999 |
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Abdullah Ocalan’s last interview in Rome
May
25, 2007
Abdullah Ocalan’s last interview in Rome before
being kidnapped by Turkish special forces in Kenya,
Feb 1999.
Q: What exactly is your situation today? Are
you really free or not?
Abdullah Ocalan:
We are living in a very strange situation, almost
unprecedented. I am neither free nor a hostage. I am
almost the only man for whom it is difficult to find
a place in the world. The Turks say that they must
punish me wherever I am; the danger is very serious.
Maybe they won’t be able to achieve it in Europe,
but outside Europe, with Israel’s assistance, they
could do it. We tried to open the door of Europe,
but Italy is facing difficulties. A place like
Africa would be very dangerous for us...
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Kurdish PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan,
PKK took up arms for self-rule in the country's
mainly Kurdish southeast of Turkey. |
Q: Why did you
leave Syria?
A: To remain
there would have provoked a regional war. The fate
of the Syrian regime was at stake. Turkey had
decided to launch a terrible operation. They wanted
to start with me, to follow up with Syria, then with
Iraq, and to dominate the whole region. I left of my
own accord, with a little persuasion of my Kurdish
friends. But a Greek invitation did not work out. I
could not enter Greece, I could not get out of
Athens’ airport, I could not file a request for
political asylum. So I went to Russia, answering an
invitation from the foreign affairs commission of
the Douma (Russian parliament).
Q: Why couldn't you stay there?
A: I stayed more
than one month in Russia. But the Prime Minister
asked me to leave, despite a unanimous vote of the
Douma: it is very interesting, and there were hidden
reasons for his decision
Q: What do you mean?
A: Turkey made
concessions, and promised a number of things,
concerning the Chechens and the Russians Muslims.
Moreover there was the American influence.
Q: Can we compare your fate with general
Barzani’s? Were you “sold out” by the Syrians when
they reached an agreement with the Turks last
October, like the Shah of Iran did with Saddam
Hussain in March 1975 at the expense of the Iraqi
Kurds?
A: There are
similarities. Barzani was allowed to go to Iran, but
he scattered a guerrilla which was very strong. He
did not resist 24 hours. Kurdistan collapsed.
Talabani did the same thing at Erbil in 1996. All
the Kurdish revolts were crushed like that. My
situation is still more difficult than Barzani’s,
but I did not stop my activities; on the contrary, I
intensified them. I do not need an external support.
Barzani relied on outside help, I don’t. And we keep
on resisting.
Q: But don’t you think that you should have
anticipated an eventual “sell out” by Syria and
looked out for a country which would give you
asylum?
A: It is true,
there were failures. I should have thought of it in
advance. But leaving Syria has allowed us to raise
the Kurdish question politically on a wider scale.
Q: How do you want to struggle from now on?
Politically? Or do you want to keep on fighting an
armed struggle?
A: If there is
no political solution, of course arms will play a
bigger role. But today we want to emphasize the
political dimension. If a process of politicisation
begins in Europe, perhaps a political solution can
be imposed on Turkey. Europe must say: there is a
war, stop the war, find a political solution. It is
not a matter of terrorism. Europe is responsible for
the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), it owes the Kurds a
revision of this treaty. With this treaty four
peoples were eliminated from the map: the Greeks,
the Armenians, the Assyrians, and now they want to
eliminate the Kurds.
Q: Don’t you think that the Treaty of
Lausanne belongs to ancient history?
A: And the
elimination of the Kurds today, is it also part of
ancient history? Should history repeat itself? It is
terrible. It is a history of treasons and genocides.
Everybody betrayed, everybody perpetrated massacres.
Europe must not behave like an ostrich and hide its
head in the sand. I am in Europe to remind it of its
responsibilities. But Europe is hiding itself as if
I was not here. It is for this reason that it gave
up organising a trial. I, I want to be judged, if
this trial is fair. The ideal would be a European
trial, which would judge both sides.
Q: What’s your position today? Are you still
president of the PKK?
A: We are in the
process of renewing the PKK and the ARGK (the
military branch of PKK). Our problems are partly the
result of the situation within the party, the
central committee, the leadership. Reform will allow
us to improve. We don’t want to cheat, there are
shortcomings and we must correct them. Our
activities during the last 15 years should have
brought other results. The Turks should not be so
free with us. We made tactical mistakes. Our
political leadership did not play its role. These
shortcomings were caused by faults in the Kurdish
character: its individualism, its lack of foresight,
its incapacity for collective action, its narrow
minded vision. So I want to transform this
personality. We are preparing our sixth congress on
this base.
Q: One has the feeling that PKK is a very
strongly disciplined organisation, and totally under
your control?
A: Yes, there is
a kind of discipline, a very strong one. They all
have very strong ties with me. If I ask them to die,
they will do it. But they don’t have any personal
creativity. For example: once the Turks seized 5.000
bags of flour and our fighters were left without
food during the winter. This would not have happened
if they had stored the bags in several locations.
Q: How do you explain the desertion of a big
leader like Semdin Sakik?
A: He was not a
big leader, but a peasant's gang chief. For ten
years he has behaved this way. We did not bring him
forward. Since 1993 it has been the Turks’ plan to
propel him centre stage. Even the French secret
services warned us that important sums of money
ended up in his pockets.
Q: Then why did you keep him?
A: I made many
efforts to keep him, to re-educate him, to
rehabilitate him, but he had very big faults. We
could not
eliminate him, we would have been blamed for
eliminating the man the BBC called our number two...
Q: For a long time you have been saying that
armed struggle would be propagated to the cities,
but without results.
Why?
A: I always had
the hope of a political solution. We are always
ready, but we have doubts about this decision. But
if there is not a political solution to the Kurdish
question soon, with me or without me, we could
witness chaos. I could give the PKK militants free
rein to act. We would watch a Palestinian-like
process, with uncontrolled attacks. We have
prevented it so far, as (we prevented)
self-immolations. It could have very serious
results.
Q: We often have this problem with you: you
simultaneously speak of violence and peace.
A: Isn't it like
this in nature?
Q: It is clear that Turkey does not want to
speak with you.
A: Then we will
make it speak.
Q: Before you proclaimed the last ceasefire,
had you any contacts with the Turkish military?
A: During the
last two years, we had indirect contacts, but
without signature. But it is very clear that it came
from the General Staff. Either it is a tactical
approach, a conspiracy, or it is a sincere search.
Maybe they think that they will do with me what they
did in the past with Kurdish leaders: “Come”, and
then say get rid of me. I have not fallen in this
trap. My seven points (for a political solution of
the Kurdish question in Turkey), were agreed by the
military; in fact they went even farther. But in
practical terms we ran into a crisis. Either there
are contradictions within the armed forces, or it
was a game. Maybe it was general Cevik Bir’s group
that sent this contact.
Q: How can you escape from this dead end? How
can you force the generals to negotiate?
A: The only way
is war!
Q: With which aims? Autonomy? A federal
system? Independence?
A: What is
needed for a contemporary man. What is true for all
peoples is also true for us. A system comparable to
what we see in Europe, a democratic federal system.
The form is not a problem, if the will is there. The
most important thing is to acknowledge the Kurdish
identity.
Q: The PKK doesn’t have a good image... What
can you do to improve it?
A: Amongst the
Kurds, since Lausanne, Europe has not a good image.
We are on the brink of being annihilated...
Q: And the PKK’s bad image?
A: It’s
demagogy...
Q: And the trials in France of fifteen Kurds
accused of being terrorists?
A: It’s
persecution. For the sake of its interests, France
is making a lot of concessions to Turkey. Politics
are often based on material interests. We, the
Kurds, we have nothing to give...
(The Middle East magazine, April 1999; Le
point, 16 Janvier 1999; Al Wasat 25 January 1999;
L'Evènement, 14 Février 1999; Le Temps, 17 february
1999)
Source: hevallo.blogspot.com
** The use of the term "Kurdistan" is vigorously
rejected due to its alleged political implications
by the Republic of Turkey, which does not recognize
the existence of a "Turkish Kurdistan" Southeast
Turkey.
Others estimate over 40 million Kurds live in
Big Kurdistan (Iraq, Turkey, Syria, Iran, Armenia),
which covers an area as big as France, about half of
all Kurds which estimate to 20 million live in
Turkey.
Turkey is home to over 25 million ethnic Kurds, some
of whom openly sympathise with the Kurdish PKK for a
Kurdish homeland in the country's mainly Kurdish
southeast of Turkey.
Before August 2002, the Turkish government placed
severe restrictions on the use of Kurdish language,
prohibiting the language in education and broadcast
media.
The Kurdish alphabet is still not recognized
in Turkey, and use of the Kurdish letters X, W, Q
which do not exist in the Turkish
alphabet has led to judicial persecution in 2000 and
2003
More than 37,000 Turkish soldiers and PKK guerrillas
have been killed since 1984 when the PKK took up
arms for self-rule in the country's mainly Kurdish
southeast of Turkey. The United States and the
European Union, like Turkey, class the PKK as a
"terrorist organisation"
The Kurdish flag flown officially in Iraqi Kurdistan
but unofficially flown by Kurds in Armenia. The flag
is banned in Iran, Syria, and Turkey where flying it
is a criminal offence"
Southeastern Turkey:
North Kurdistan ( Kurdistan-Turkey)
wikipedia
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