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Full transcript of the Interview with
Kurdistan's president Massoud Barzani
25.3.2007
by Ghassan Charbel |
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Kurdistan region president Massoud Barzani to "Al
Hayat": "We are not part of the Sunni-Shiite
confrontation. We will not abandon Kirkuk and we
will not accept the agenda of Turkey. Iran doesn't
interfere in Kurdistan-Iraq, the interests of
Syrians have changed."
March 25, 2007
Amman - The president of Iraqi Kurdistan
Province, the Kurdish leader Mr. Massoud Barzani
considered that the American withdrawal from Iraq in
the current situation, "will cause a catastrophe and
a tragedy" or maybe "a fierce civil war". In an
interview with "Al Hayat" he stressed that the
ongoing developments in the country after the fall
of Saddam Hussein
"benefited Iraq as a whole, the Kurds seized the
opportunity but our Arab Sunni and Shiite brethren
didn't exploit it and that's not our fault."
He admitted that Iraq witnesses a Sunni-Shiite
confrontation but Kurds are not part of the
conflict. He warned against hindering the referendum
on the future of Kirkuk saying: "we won't accept the
agenda of Turkey in the region." He suggested a
common administration for Kirkuk with Turkmen, Arab
and Christians; he added that no Kurd can abandon
the region, criticizing Arab chauvinists and a group
of Turkmen connected to the Turkish Intelligence
Army.
Barzani was asked if he still has the dream of a
nation, he answered that it's a legitimate right to
the Kurd nation that is different from other
nations. The dream will come true. He stated that he
doesn't consider the relationship with Israel a
crime but it violates the Iraqi constitution.
He insinuated apathy in the relation with Syria: "it
seems that their interests have changed." He also
announced that the Iranian interference, "if it
exists, is in the other Iraqi regions that are not
Kurdish." |
Massoud Barzani, President of Kurdistan region
(Iraq), speaks during a news conference in Amman,
Jordan, Tuesday, March 20, 2007 AP |
Find below the full transcript of the interview
with the participation of our colleague Nabil
Ghichan:
Hayat: Are you
concerned about the situation in Iraq?
Massoud Barzani:
It's not a matter of concern but the situation is
annoying and worrying.
Hayat: What's
the reason behind your concerns? The failure to
establish a nation, or the failure to reach an
agreement among Iraqis?
Barzani: What
worries me most or what I consider dangerous because
it threatens the future of Iraq, is the sectarian
conflict that has taken root dangerously.
Hayat: Does Iraq
live a civil war? Can we call the current situation
a civil war between Sunnis and Shiites?
Barzani: I don't
know, but the result is tragic, if you want to give
it a title it could be "a murder according to the
identity card". I don't know exactly what a civil
war is, it's a tragic or a sectarian war.
Hayat: Are we
witnessing a Sunni-Shiite confrontation?
Barzani: Yes we
are.
Hayat: Are Kurds
part of this confrontation?
Barzani: No they
aren't, in this confrontation we are part of the
solution, we are part of the problem and not part of
the confrontation.
Hayat: Are you
afraid of the American withdrawal?
Barzani: At this
stage, the withdrawal would cause a catastrophe.
Hayat: A
catastrophe? Can you please clarify this idea?
Barzani: The
American presence prevents the situation from
deteriorating or from moving to a fierce civil war.
Their presence is very important, it stops the
foreign threats.
Hayat: From
which party?
Barzani: From
any country that has aspirations, an agenda or the
intention to intervene militarily.
Hayat: So you
consider that any American withdrawal would cause a
catastrophe?
Barzani: Yes, if
there is no order in Iraq yet, if the Iraqi
government, the army and the security forces are not
ready to control the situation, the withdrawal would
lead to a tragedy.
Hayat: Are you
afraid of broad invasions in case Americans
withdraw? Will the Shiite try to control Baghdad for
example?
Barzani:
Everything is possible, Sunnis or Shiites may try to
do that, there will be then a real fierce civil war.
Hayat: If the
Americans withdraw, what would the Kurds do?
Barzani: We will
try to prevent this from happening, if we fail, we
won't be part of it and we hope that it won't
happen.
Four years of war
Hayat: Four
years after the outbreak of war in Iraq, was this
war a mistake?
Barzani: The
mistakes started after the war. I think that the
decision of toppling the regime wasn't wrong because
getting rid of any dictatorial regime in any country
is good but the mistakes started with the issuance
of UN Security Council resolution 1483 and the
arrival of Paul Bremer as a civil governor in Iraq.
Hayat: There is
a point of view that states that the American
Administration didn't plan to establish a governing
council but the failure of the Iraqi opposition to
agree on a government, prompted it to choose this?
Barzani: That
isn't true, the resolution 1483 transformed these
forces into invading ones and according to it, they
designated Paul Bremer as the supreme governor of
Iraq. Iraqi forces didn't have the opportunity to
form a government and we started talks with the
forces to form an interim government, but we were
surprised by the resolution 1483 and by the
cancellation of all what we had agreed on.
Hayat: The
mistakes started from here?
Barzani: Yes.
Hayat: Do you
think that dismantling the Iraqi Army is one of the
mistakes?
Barzani: Not
only dismantling the army; first, the proscription
to form an interim government and barring Iraqis
from exercising their rights. It wasn't necessary to
dismantle the army but to restructure it. Iraq
doesn't need one million soldiers however, the
culture of the army wasn't convenient, it was meant
to oppress Iraqi people. That's why, it was
necessary to restructure it and to re-educate it. It
was wrong to dissolve the army without determining
the future of Iraqis, without giving them the
opportunity to live or without securing acquired
rights and leaving them in the street.
Hayat: Did some
of them join the resistance?
Barzani:
Everyone chose a way, dismantling the army was a
mistake, we needed it but with a lesser number and
with a different culture and equipment.
Hayat: Was the
decision of Debaathification a mistake too?
Barzani: During
the conference, that organized by the opposition and
held in London in 2002, before the collapse of the
regime, I told to the participants that toppling the
regime is a matter of time, but the problem will
start after its collapse. We have a successful
experience in Kurdistan, I hope that you will profit
from it. On the personal level, 37 persons of my
family were killed, my tribe lost 8200 persons and
my nation lost 180 thousand persons, though, we
didn't reject peace even with Saddam Hussein, we
issued a general amnesty to all those who cooperated
with the regime in the uprising of 1991. There are
dispositions of revenge; if we take it as a mean to
settle accounts, we won't achieve any result. This
is the reason why I called upon them to agree on a
group of names related to the former regime, they
are now wanted by justice. The rest are citizens and
any Baathist is not in the front but at the same
time he is treated as an Iraqi citizen without
allowing the Baath party to remain. It was important
to determine the wanted names. The debaathification
process was implemented in a wrong way.
Hayat: What did
you feel when they executed Saddam Hussein? He was
the cause of the catastrophe that befell your
family, your tribe and your nation.
Barzani: I
considered Saddam Hussein dead when he was taken off
the hole without showing any resistance. It didn't
surprise me when he was executed but I wished he was
not executed on a the day of Eid (Muslim
celebration).
Hayat: Did you
know the date of the execution?
Barzani: No.
Hayat: Did the
execution on the day of the Eid affect Iraqis?
Barzani: Of
course, it wasn't desirable, they should have taken
into consideration Muslims feelings and he shouldn't
have been executed on this day. I'm not against
capital punishment but not the day of Eid.
Hayat: Did you
feel that you want to take revenge?
Barzani: I have
never thought of revenge.
Hayat: Did you
think of killing Saddam?
Barzani: When he
was in power and we were fighting him, I sought to
topple him but not for a personal reason. I support
the cause of a nation, the cause of democracy in
Iraq, the cause of Kurds human rights, I considered
him against these causes so I tried to topple him
and his regime but I didn't think of killing him
personally.
Hayat: They
announced the execution of Taha Yassin Ramadan. What
do you feel when you see that the history of Iraq is
full of executions and violence?
Barzani: The
Iraqi history is full of executions; the person who
comes to power executes his predecessor. I would
have wished another history for Iraq but that is
what happened.
Hayat: This is
our history, this our present, do you have hopes for
a different Iraq?
Barzani: We are
working to be different and we must not lose hope
although the process is not easy.
Kirkuk and the referendum -
Top
Hayat: We hear a
lot about Kirkuk and the compulsory Arabization and
the enforced prohibition of compulsory Arabization.
Where is the truth?
Barzani: There
is a misunderstanding of the subject. Kirkuk is an
Iraqi region, its identity is Kurdish, and all
historical and geographical facts prove this fact.
Oil was first discovered in this region, that is why
the successive regimes tended to treat the region in
a non humanitarian way; they stripped Kurds from all
their rights, 200 thousand Kurdish families were
displaced, while others were obliged to change their
affiliation to an Arab nationalism. Arab tribes were
moved from South to the center and were established
in Kirkuk, to no avail. After the collapse of the
regime, it was agreed on resolving problems
according to article 140 of the Constitution, the
displaced would regain their regions and Arabs would
return to their regions with their indemnities,
genuine Arab and Kurds stay. After normalization
they would conduct statistics and a referendum.There
is a big confusion, we are seen as if we refuse the
presence of Arabs and as if we fire Turkmen. No, we
are ready to establish a common administration in
Kirkuk after normalization.
Hayat: Common
administration with whom?
Barzani: With
Turkmen, Arab and Christians.
Hayat: When is
the date of the referendum?
Barzani: The
process must end in 2007.
Hayat: Did the
Kirkuk issue trigger any tension with the Sadr
movement?
Barzani: A part
of it, the government brought from south Arab tribes
that belong to Sadr movement as said, but according
to our meetings with them, Sadr movement agrees on
the implementation of the article 140 of the
Constitution.
Hayat: What does
it happen if non Kurdish forces choose to hinder the
referendum?
Barzani: If we
comply with the Constitution, the process ends
quickly but there are people who are against the
referendum so everybody will take a strong position
against the party who opposes it.
Hayat: Who is
controlling military in Kirkuk?
Barzani:
Americans.
Hayat: Is there
any Peshmerga troops? ?
Barzani: They
are not there, only American forces and the Iraqi
army forces.
Hayat: In case
there will be a civil war after the American
withdrawal, do you expect the Peshmergas to enter
Kirkuk?
Barzani: Why
does a civil war have to break out? We are not
thinking of a civil war, Arabs who are present are
our brethren, Turkmen's too. Some predict a civil
war and the truth is that there will be no civil
war. Those who claim that Kurds will control Kirkuk
are some marginal Turkmen and Arab groups. They
don't represent Arab or Turkmen majority. They are
groups who lost their gains with the collapse of the
regime and they want to muddle but it will not stop
the process.
Hayat: Is your
problem in Kirkuk with Turkey?
Barzani: No,
Kirkuk is an Iraqi region, Turkey has nothing to do
with it and we don't allow Turkey to intervene in
the issue of Kirkuk at all, because it's a foreign
country and we won't accept its agenda in the
region. It doesn't have the right to intervene in
the Iraqi issue, does it?
Hayat: Turkey
says that the creation of Kurdistan Province similar
to a state threatens its security?
Barzani: This is
a wrong perception, we don't threaten Turkey.
Hayat: Can
Massoud Barzani abandon Kirkuk?
Barzani: Never
Hayat: Who is
the Kurdish leader who can abandon it?
Barzani: No
Kurdish can abandon Kirkuk.
Hayat: It's like
saying that there is no Palestinian who will abandon
Jerusalem?
Barzani: I'm not
comparing Kirkuk to Jerusalem, there is a big
difference but no Kurdish abandons Kirkuk.
Hayat: You
cannot sign an agreement that states that Kirkuk is
not part of Kurdistan whatever the temptations are,
can you?
Barzani: I tell
you, confidently, that it's impossible to accept any
other solution.
Hayat: If you
fail to annex the region to Kurdistan, will you keep
the issue postponed?
Barzani: We
agreed constitutionally on how to resolve the
problem. The problem doesn't lie in Kirkuk only.
There is a problem in the border between Anbar
Province and Baghdad, Tikrit, Najaf and Karbala and
there is a problem between Baghdad and Moussol. They
all embody the changes the former regime have made
for political reasons to make a demographic change.
People who want to blow the situation out
dangerously infringes the execution of article 140
of the Constitution and people who are keen to the
interest of Iraq and to definitely resolve Kirkuk
problem, should help implement this article.
A barrel of explosives
Hayat: Why do
you describe the Kirkuk issue as a barrel of
explosives?
Barzani: That's
not true, there are Arab chauvinists and a group of
Turkmen related to the Turkish Intelligence Army,
they can't do anything because Arab do not support
them nor Turkmen do, everybody agrees on the
constitutional solution and interventions will cause
problems in Kirkuk.
Hayat: The
current Iraqi government complies with the
agreement?
Barzani: Yes, it
legally complies with it.
Hayat: What
about the big political parties?
Barzani: They
comply with it too.
Hayat: Including
Sadr movement?
Barzani: Sadr
movement complies with the Constitution and we have
the right to take decisions against any party that
doesn't comply with it.
Hayat: Does the
invitation to form a Province in the south and
another one in the center relieve you as a Kurd?
Barzani: We
support the federal regime in all regions and we
leave the further details to those who live in it.
Hayat: Your name
figures on the list of wanted people for
international terrorism? Did you face an
assassination attempt? Have the party location been
targeted?
Barzani: After
the collapse of the regime on April, the location of
Kurdish Democratic Party witnessed two suicide
attacks and there were damages. Other operations
occurred too but it has been a long time since we
have faced an attack. On the personal level, they
didn't succeed in reaching me.
Hayat: Do you
have strict security procedures?
Barzani: Sure
Hayat: What do
you say about the presence of Al Quaeda organization
in Kurdistan?
Barzani: It
doesn't exist because Kurds absolutely refuse this
ideology, the operations that happened are caused by
the infiltration from Mosul to Erbil and there is no
Quaeda or any allied organizations in the Province.
Hayat: Aren't
there Kurdish extremists allied to Al Quaeda?
Barzani: There
are few numbers of them but they couldn't stay in
Kurdistan.
Hayat: What's
the problem of the Kurdish Labor Party?
Barzani: The
problem is with Turkey, it's a political cause, if
it is not solved politically the problem will
remain.
Hayat: Does the
party exist in your regions?
Barzani: They
may have some locations on the border line but they
are in remote regions and in tortuous mountains.
Hayat: I noticed
that you were born in Mahabad Republic?
Barzani: To
correct the information, Kurdistan Republic in
Mahabad and it's a wrong designation.
Hayat: How old
are you?
Barzani: I was
born in 1946.
Hayat: Do you
think that you have achieved part of your dreams in
seeing Kurds enjoying security in Iraq and are
respected with regard to their identity and
tradition?
Barzani: Yes, to
a large extent.
Artificial borders
Hayat: Do you
still maintain the dream of a nation?
Barzani: I
consider it a legitimate right because Kurds form a
nation that is different from other nations, it's
not less important than them, so its legitimate
right is to have its independent nation. I don't
consider it as a dream.
Hayat: Did it
come true then?
Barzani: It will
come true but I don't know when.
Hayat: Maybe it
would require decades.
Barzani: At the
end, this nation of 40 million people may have an
independent nation.
Hayat: Is there
a geographic connection?
Barzani: Sure,
it's an artificial border and some villages are
divided among countries.
Hayat: Have you
ever felt the need to declare the independence of
Kurdistan?
Barzani: I don't
take risks, we will declare it or somebody else will
declare it in the appropriate moment, that will
allow it to resist and survive and I don't know when
the time will come.
Hayat: Do you
feel that you have achieved what Mullah Mustapha
Barzani couldn't achieve?
Barzani: We
achieved the survival of what he had planned and we
are his disciples.
Kurdistan and Israel
-
Top
Hayat: There are
some news about Israeli infiltration to Kurdistan,
on the security and economic levels, and it's said
that
Israel is working again on the minorities in the
region?
Barzani: We are
part of the Iraqi government. According to the
Constitution we don't have the right to build any
relation with any country and if Israel opens its
embassy in Baghdad it will open its consulate in
Arbil. Although I don't consider the relation with
it as a crime but it's a violation of the Iraqi
constitution. Israel has relations with all Arab
countries.
Hayat: With all
Arab countries?
Barzani: I think
with all Arab countries, some are public and some
are secret, if these countries have relations with
Israel why does it have to be seen as a crime if
others do that too? But I assure that there is no
Israeli activity in Kurdistan.
Hayat: Aren't
there security relations or armament? Do you need
arms?
Barzani: We do
have a lot of weaponry. We give arms to those who
need them and hopefully we won't need arms.
Hayat: What
about the relations with Iran?
Barzani: Our
relations are normal, there are economic relations.
In Kurdistan we don't have any problem with Iran.
Hayat: They are
talking today about the intervention of Iran in
Kurdistan-Iraq?
Barzani: They
aren't in Kurdistan Province; the intervention of
Iran, if it exists, is in other regions.
The role of Syria and Iran
Hayat: There are
news about two foreign roles in Iraq, the Syrian
role and the Iranian role, is Kurdistan apart from
them?
Barzani: No
regional country could implement its agenda in
Kurdistan because the population refuses this trend.
In addition, there is no basis to implement this
agenda.
Hayat: How is
your relationship with Syria?
Barzani: Our
relationship with Syria is long-standing, but it's
not as strong as it was before.
Hayat: Why?
Barzani: I don't
know, it seems that their interests have changed.
Hayat: It's said
that Kurds in Kurdistan-Iraq are the big winner of
the collapse of Saddam because Arabs drifted toward
Sunni-Shiite rift. Do you feel that these events are
in your interest?
Barzani: Events
were in the interest of Iraq but we seized the
opportunity, while our Sunni and Shiite Arab
brethren didn't benefited form the chance, it is not
our fault. We still offer help but if they don't
want to seize the opportunity why do you have to
punish Kurds?
Hayat: In
Kurdistan there is the Iraqi president and the
president of the Province. How is the relation
between you two?
Barzani: The
relation is strong and we have put our differences
away.
Hayat: On the
ground, the institutions are divided.
Barzani: The
unification process continues successfully.
Hayat: What
about the situation in Kurdistan?
Barzani: We have
registered an improvement but we still have a lot of
problems such as fuel and electrical energy
problems.
The former regime didn't execute any program that
serves the region, that's why we are starting from
scratch.
Hayat: Do
investors tend to go to Kurdistan?
Barzani: That's
right, the opportunity is very important.
Hayat: What
about security there?
Barzani: We
thank our security apparatus and our populations
that are cooperating together, security is perfect
there.
Hayat: What
about the immigration of Christians from Baghdad to
Kurdistan?
Barzani: That's
true, it doesn't include Christians only but Arab
and Muslims and we have over 18 thousand Arab
families that immigrated to Kurdistan Province and
they are most welcome.
Hayat: Are you
concerned about the Christian presence in Iraq since
it is eroding?
Barzani: I don't
advice them to immigrate outside the country.
Hayat: Are the
rights of non Kurds guaranteed?
Barzani: Our
constitution is under consideration and it will
guarantee the rights of all citizens who live in the
Province whatever their nationalism or their
religion is.
American withdrawal
Hayat: Did the
American tell you about an impendent withdrawal?
Barzani: They
assured that they won't withdraw until the situation
in Iraq is settled and stabilized because their
quick withdrawal would cause a catastrophe.
Hayat: Who is
responsible of the security in Kurdistan?
Barzani: The
police.
Hayat: Are there
unities from the army stationed in the Province?
Barzani: Yes,
there are forces from the Ministry of Defense and
there are Peshmergas.
Hayat: Are you
relieved?
Barzani: I will
feel relieved when the situation in Iraq becomes
stable.
Hayat: Are you
afraid of the arrival of big numbers of immigrants
to the Province in case American forces withdraw?
Barzani:
Kurdistan is ready to open its hearts to our Arab
Iraqi brethren.
Hayat: Is it
possible that the majority Sunni Kurds participate
in the civil war next to Sunnis?
Barzani: I don't
think so. In case a Sunni-Shiite war breaks up, we
will not take part in the conflict, we will rather
try to stop it.
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