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Iraqi President Jalal Talabani talks to
Asharq Al-Awsat
17.5.2006
Interview by Ma'ad Fayad
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(Asharq Al-Awsat) May
17, - The majority of the Iraqi people welcomed
having a Kurd as the president of the republic. This
is Iraq. But how do you answer those demanding that
the president should be an Arab since Iraq is an
Arab country?
(Talabani) It is not a condition that Iraq's
president should be Kurd but should be - in addition
to his humanitarian, political, and other required
qualifications - the man of national accord,
acceptable to the main parties in parliament, and
capable of bringing views closer and playing a role
in the national reconciliation as well as a role in
achieving the national unity government by bringing
the views of the various entities in Iraq closer.
As to the other view, that the president should be
Arab, this conflicts with the concept of national
unity. The principal condition in the concept of
Iraqi unity is that all the citizens are equal in
rights and duties. Therefore every Iraqi has the
right to be president of the republic or prime
minister if he meets the conditions for these two
posts. Excluding the Kurds from this or that post
because he is Kurd is a chauvinistic exclusion that
is not commensurate with the concept of national
unity and harbors the spirit of anti-Kurdish
nationalistic fanaticism. I would like to say that
having Kurds occupy major posts in the Arab homeland
is not something new. |
Iraqi
President : Jalal Talabani, a Kurd
Photo: Military |
Let us see how many
Syrian presidents were Kurds and no one objected to
him because he was a Kurd. The objection concerned
his behavior, performance, or stands. This objection
is a new fad that appeared with Aflaqism (Reference
to Baath Party founder Michel Aflaq) in the Arab
world. Aflaqism, a plague as I call it, brought a
bunch of chauvinistic and hostile ideas that
fragmented the people's unity and was hostile to the
democratic principles. We notice in the developed
countries that the naturalized citizen has the right
to occupy the highest position without any objection
to his origins. Why should there not be in Iraq a
right for all to occupy the important posts if they
have the qualifications. We should object when the
president of the republic comes through military
coups, tanks, and regime change despite the people's
will. But when the parliamentary majority selects
the president, then he has the right to be whatever
he is.
(Awsat) Mentioning coups, do you believe that the
era of military coups in Iraq is over?
(Talabani) I believe it is over. I believe
that the whole age does not accept military coups
anymore. I am not saying that there is no
possibility of a coup in backward countries when
some officers get it into their heads and carry out
a dictatorial action through a coup but saying that
the age of military coups is over. I regret to say
that a Kurdish officer, Major General Bakr Sidqi who
was the aide to the army's chief of staff in the
1930s, initiated the era of military coups in Iraq.
He responded to a request from the Iraqi Arabs'
progressive leaders, like the late immortal Ja'far
Abu-al-Tamn and Kamil al-Jadirji, who assumed power
after this coup. It was a bad start. Today's
globalization does not accept military coups.
GOVERNMENT CRISIS
(Awsat) Let us talk about the present crisis, that
of forming the government. You bring the parties
together whenever the crisis becomes more severe so
as to help solve it. Where have the efforts to form
the government reached?
(Talabani) I would like to say that this is
an honor for me, an honor that I do not claim and a
charge I do not deny. The task of forming the
government in Iraq is a difficult one. You know the
Iraqi people's social, class, and ethnic structure.
God gave this country many resources, its valleys,
mountains, and plains. But it is not an easy country
and has been a country of problems since Imam Ali. I
therefore say that the formation of the government
is not an easy task. There are difficulties inside
every bloc on one hand and between the blocs on the
other. God help our brother Nuri al-Maliki as he
advances forward step by step. I believe he is on
the verge of completing the formation of the
government because it is the distribution of posts
that remains. There are minor problems with Al-Tawafuq
Front and also Al-Iraqiyah list. I am expecting the
agreement to be reached tomorrow (today), God
willing.
(Awsat) You are known to be a secularist belonging
to the national liberation tendency that is far
removed from sectarianism and ethnic discrimination.
How will you agree with one government of Shiites
and Sunnis?
(Talabani) Do not forget that I am a Sunni.
(Awsat) I do not want to talk about the sectarian
issue. You are secular and do not think of the
sectarian matter?
(Talabani) Let me tell you the reality. This
is Iraq. It is made up of the Arab and Kurdish
nationalities. This was stipulated in Saddam
Hussein's constitution. There are the Turkoman and
Chaldean-Assyrian nationalities besides these two.
There are Muslims and Christians in Iraq. The
Muslims are divided between the Sunni and the Shiite
doctrines and there are the Hanafists and Al-Shafi'ists
in the Sunnis. This is quite normal in Iraq and it
is not imported or concocted. But what is lacking in
Iraq today is the presence of parties spreading
across the homeland as branches and organizations
and extending from Zakho to Basra and where the
party enters as a real list. Iraq lacks the
democratic experience. When the Aflaqists took over
power in Iraq, they put en end to the progressive
movement in the country and also to the pan-Arabists
who were unable to send a single deputy to
parliament. The fact is that the political movement
in Iraq is today divided into secularists and
Islamists. The latter are the majority, whether they
are Sunni or Shiite Arabs. They won the majority of
seats in parliament as a result of the elections. It
is therefore natural for the government to be formed
from these lists that won the elections. Why do we
not call it the lists' quotas between them and not
sectarian quotas? Let us take the Kurdish list as an
example. This list has five ministers and the ones
we have presented include Muslims and Christians. We
have a Christian minister, Fawzi al-Hariri. He was
not nominated as a Christian but in the Kurdish
list. We have a woman nominated to be a minister.
These lists' representation reflects their reality.
For example, Al-Iraqiyah list nominated Sunni and
Shiite Arabs, men and women. This is its structure.
It is the same with the other lists. There is
nothing in the constitution indicating that this
number is allocated for the Sunni Arabs, Shiite
Arabs, or Kurds. We in the Kurdistan list lost four
ministerial portfolios. We had nine and they gave us
five. Yet we accepted this in order to facilitate
matters. It is the elections' results that reflected
the Iraqi society's political reality and
distribution.
(Awsat) But I want this government to be one of
national unity in which all the political blocs that
won in the elections take part so as to participate
in the decision-making process.
(Talabani) This is true.
DISTRIBUTION OF MINISTERIAL
PORTFOLIOS
(Awsat) But Al-Iraqiyah list and also the Dialogue
Front are feeling excluded because they are not
being given important ministries.
(Talabani) I believe that there is no
intention to exclude any of the parties that won in
the elections. But there are unreasonable demands.
For example, the Dialogue Front led by Salih al-Mutlak.
He is insisting on having the foreign ministry
portfolio and saying because I am an Arab and
Iraqi-Arab relations need an Arab minister for the
foreign ministry. If we discuss this idea, we see
that it is essentially chauvinistic. Who said that
the Arabs in Iraq were able to improve relations
between it and the Arab countries? Iraqi-Arab
relations worsened at the Arabs' hands. But what
kind of Arabs? The Arabs who do not care about
Iraq's interest or the Arab interest. Did
Iraqi-Syrian relations go through a bad stage like
the one through the Baath rule in both countries?
The Nasirites seized power in Iraq and were unable
to achieve unity with Egypt. Let us ask: Have
Iraqi-Arab relations worsened at the hands of
Kurdish, Turkoman, or Arab foreign ministers?
Therefore the idea that the foreign minister should
be Arab so as to improve relations with the Arabs is
a chauvinistic one. I am a Kurd but have the best
relations with the Arabs and Arab countries. I am
possibly the only Iraqi official who did not insult
Syria but always praised its help to the Iraqi
opposition and people. Brother Hoshyar Zebari played
an important role in deepening relations with the
Arab countries even though he is a Kurd. Al-Mutlak's
insistence that the foreign minister should be an
Arab created discrimination between the Arabs and
the other nationalities. If the Kurdish citizen
senses this discrimination in this country, he will
then think about living in another country.
We want to express the nature of the Iraqi people's
structure. The monarchy acknowledged the existence
of a Kurdish nationality in Iraq. The two stars on
the Iraqi flag under the monarchy symbolized the
Arab and Kurdish nationalities. The Kurds occupied
major posts in the state under the monarchy, like
prime minister, defense minister, or army chief of
staff. The 14 July 1958 revolution started with
Article 6, which says that the Arabs and Kurds are
partners in Iraq. Iraq was called the republic of
Arabs and Kurds. We did not hear that Iraq was a
purely Arab republic before the Arab chauvinists who
destroyed the country with their plots. The Iraqi
constitution stipulates this partnership and the
clause on the Arab-Kurdish partnership was taken
from the program of the Iraqi national congress that
included the nationalist democrats, the pan-Arab
Independence Party, and the Popular Front. This
phrase was the common denominator for all the Iraqis
before the chauvinist and Aflaqist tendencies'
despotism. Therefore and from the partnership
premise, the Kurds have the right to occupy this or
that post. Brother Salih (Al-Mutlak) can say he is
better and more qualified to occupy this or that
post but not say that he is better than Hoshyar
Zebari for occupying this post because he is an
Arab. This is an old and defunct tendency that is
really provocative to the Kurds and all the
progressive democrats in Iraq.
As to Al-Iraqiyah list's participation, my
information is that it is on the verge of
participating in the government. Al-Maliki's
proposals to Al-Iraqiyah are reasonable. I attended
a meeting we held in this house and we made great
efforts with Dr. Iyad Allawi to persuade him to join
the government. The ministries offered by the prime
minister were clear and logical. I believe that the
brothers in Al-Iraqiyah accept them, that is, if
they have not already done so. There is hope that
Al-Iraqiyah and Dialogue Front will join, but
according to their size and reality.
FEDERALISM
(Awsat) Do you believe that the Kurds, as a people,
are satisfied with what they are now, with what they
have got in Iraq?
(Talabani) Yes, as a people and I will give
you an example. If we compare between the Kurds who
voted for the Iraqi constitution and those who voted
for the establishment of the Iraqi state at its
birth and according to the history of Iraqi
cabinets, the Kurds voted against the rule of King
Faysal I. Now, 80 percent of the Kurds voted for
Iraq's constitution and Iraqi unity. There is
therefore satisfaction, otherwise they would not
have voted for the constitution. There is another
proof. In the absence of the Iraqi state and the
establishment of Kurdistan's parliament, the latter
approved unanimously the Iraqi unity and the
establishment of a democratic state on a federal
basis. There is therefore general satisfaction with
the present unified and federal Iraq. But there are
demands, criticisms, and deficiencies that the Kurds
can object to, just like the Arabs of Al-Anbar,
Basra, or Karbala. Briefly and to the point, I
believe that the Kurds are satisfied with the new
Iraqi system.
(Awsat) There are fears among some Arabs, Iraqis and
others, that the region of Kurdistan will secede
from Iraq's body. How do you assure them?
(Talabani) I do not believe there are Arabs
who fear secession. There are the chauvinists who
believe this. The majority of the Arabs and Kurds
voted for the parliament, national unity, and the
democratic federal Iraq. The Sunni Arab party that
objected to federalism admitted frankly that it did
not object to Kurdistan's federalism. Even brother
Salih al-Mutlak said I do not object to Kurdistan's
federalism. More than that, he said I do not object
to Kurdistan's secession from Iraq. Therefore there
is no objection to the region of Kurdistan. There is
objection to the region by the Arab chauvinists. All
the Iraqi political parties agreed that Kurdistan
should be a federal region. The objection at present
is about the federalism in the south and not
Kurdistan. This question, please do not take this
amiss, lacks accuracy. Moreover, what role did the
Kurds play in Iraq? Were the Kurds secessionists,
then we would have left the Iraqi parties fight each
other, said it was their misery, and sat in the
region watching what was happening. Were it not for
the great and persistent efforts we made with the
allies, then matters would not have reached where
they are now, like forming a national unity
government. All the political parties acknowledge
today our effort to unite the stands. This shows our
enthusiasm for national unity. I do not believe that
the Arabs in Iraq have objections to our federalism.
Outside Iraq, they look at it positively. What we
are hearing against the Kurds are chauvinist ideas
against Iraq's interest. If we translate the word
federalism into Arabic it would be unionism.
(Awsat) I said fears, not objections. Fears that the
Kurds will think of secession, especially as there
is the plebiscite committee that demanded secession?
(Talabani) All right. Let us go to the fear.
The plebiscite held in Kurdistan did not have the
aim of secession but the right to
self-determination. Every side has the right to
self-determination. We decided our fate by being
part of Iraq. We decided to remain within the
independent, united, democratic, pluralist, and
federal Iraq. There is a difference between a
compulsory unity imposed by force of arms, like
British colonialism did in the 1920's, and a
voluntary unity that the Kurds decided by staying in
Iraq and the Iraqis under one state.
If you read the book Mosul's Problem that was
published in 1977 and written by an Iraqi Arab
university teacher, you see that it says that the
League of Nations came and carried out
investigations in Mosul and acknowledged that the
Kurds were the majority in the Kurdistan region. It
also acknowledged that this region was never part of
the Arab Iraq and that the majority of the
population in that region preferred to live with the
Arabs. There was therefore voluntary coexistence
between the nationalities and we chose to live with
the Arabs. Let me ask why are there not fears of the
Arabs seceding? Part of the Arabs in Iraq is calling
for absorbing the Iraqi entity in the entity of
other Arab countries and this is a secessionist
tendency. Let me ask: You are an Arab Iraqi and I am
a Kurdish Iraqi. Do we have equal rights?
(Awsat) I believe you have more rights and
privileges than me.
(Talabani) From the legal aspect, is your
right like mine? Therefore you are calling for
absorbing your entity in an Arab one. So why is it
not my right to protect my Kurdish entity? Yes,
there are some poets and young people who object to
us and consider us Arabists and that we have veered
off the Kurdish national line. But the truth of the
matter is that the majority of the Kurdish people
voted for the constitution and this means that our
people have agreed to be within the independent,
democratic, and federal Iraq. There is therefore no
reason for the fears that are voiced by some
Aflaqist chauvinists.
THE KARKUK PROBLEM
(Awsat) How do you view the solution for the Karkuk
problem?
(Talabani) The solution is in the
constitution. It is a simple solution: Removal of
the effects of Saddam's ethnic cleansing, the return
of displaced persons to their areas, and the
reunification of Karkuk. Let us look at what Saddam
did. He displaced hundreds of thousands of Kurds and
Turkoman from the area and replaced them with
hundreds of thousand of Arabs from outside,
especially from the south. This created a
demographic and sectarian problem because Karkuk has
forever been a Sunni city. Most of those that Saddam
brought were Shiite Arabs from the south and many of
them want to return to their areas of their own free
will. Therefore the effects of the ethnic cleansing
have to be removed and things returned to normal.
The Karkuk Governorate's administrative boundaries
have been known since the monarchy. Saddam Hussein
then came and annexed Jalul to Diyali Governorate,
Toz Kharmatou district to Tikrit, Kalar and
Chamchamal districts to Al-Sulaymaniyah. He kept
only the city and Al-Huwayjah after destroying all
the Kurdish and Turkoman villages around Karkuk.
Saddam Husayn carried out an ethnic cleansing
operation that violated all Islamic, democratic,
patriotic, and human values as well as human rights.
Now it is the restoration of the situations back to
normal that is required. The decision will be left
to the people there. If they want Karkuk to remain a
governorate not within kurdisan's borders, then they
are welcome to it. If they want to join the region,
then they are also welcome. We have to seek the
people's view and look at the issue calmly without
creating a spirit of hostility between the Arabs,
Kurds, and Turkoman. There are today foreign
countries interfering in the Karkuk issue and they
do not have the right to talk about it.
(Awsat) What about the Arabs that Saddam had
brought? What is their crime to make them leave an
Iraqi city called Karkuk?
(Talabani) If you meet and tell them those
who want to remain can do so on condition that they
do not change the city's demography, a large part of
them want to return to the areas from where they
were brought. Some said it is impermissible for us
to remain because it is contrary to Islam to come
and take the land of others by force. There are
10,000 Arab families that have applied so far to
return to their areas. I am from Karkuk city and my
family, Talabani, is one of the oldest families in
the city's history. The Talabani hospice was built
more than 280 years ago. Karkuk is historically a
Kurdish city. I am not saying this but the Ottoman
Encyclopedia book (he shows us the old book) that
was published during the Ottoman rule. Read in the
media index (scans the pages) and says we accept
what was said during the Ottoman rule. There is the
Ottoman Empire's map (points at an old map hanging
on a wall facing his desk) and this a European map
of Karkuk (map hanging to the left of the desk). We
accept what these maps say. There are firm historic
facts and if you refer to the first statistics about
Karkuk you will find that the Arabs' percentage was
very low. There were eight Arab students only in my
class when I was a secondary school student (5 th
sciences). They were the sons of employees. The
Arabs are present in Huwayjah and Toz district.
Between 1945 and 1955, 14,000 Arabs came to Karkuk
as state employees or workers in the oil companies.
We did not say these should be returned because they
became part of the city's population. Those who were
brought during Saddam's rule for ethnic cleansing
purposes have no right to determine the city's fate.
They have the right to stay and reside but not the
right to vote on the city's fate.
REGIONAL DANGERS TO IRAQ
(Awsat) There are dangers to Iraq from regional
countries. These dangers have become a fact
following the Iranian bombardment of areas in
Kurdistan and the massing of Turkish troops on
Iraq's northern borders. How do you view these
dangers?
(Talabani) I do not believe that there are
real fears from neighboring countries. We in Iraq
agreed among ourselves and are forming a national
unity government. We can solve the disagreements
with neighboring countries easily. Give me a
national unity government and a delegation from it
and I pledge as the president of the republic to go
to Tehran and Ankara and solve the problems. If I
cannot, I will go to Al-Sulaymaniyah and send my
resignation to Baghdad. There are positive and
negative relations between Iran and us but there is
prospect for understanding between us. There is
prospect for understanding between Iraq and Turkey.
These countries use semi-factual excuses. Let us be
frank with each other. There is the Kurdish Workers
Party that acts from the Iraqi territories and
strikes Turkey and then seeks refuge in Iraqi
Kurdistan's mountains. Do you want Turkey to just
watch what is happening? There is an Iranian Kurdish
party called Pajak that also carries out killings
inside Iranian territories and then seeks refuge to
Iraqi Kurdistan's mountains. Do you want the
Iranians to just watch what is happening? No one
accepts this. We must therefore reach a solution so
that Turkey and Iran will not have an excuse for
strikes on Iraq's territories or to maintain their
troops on our borders. I believe that the problem is
in forming a government of national unity. Once this
is solved, then everything will be resolved with
Iran, Turkey, and Syria too, with which we have some
problems. These are solved through dialogue, not
through media campaigns and insults in which I do
not believe. Yes, there are problems with Syria and
I prefer to have a high-level delegation visit
Damascus and place the problems at the negotiating
table so as to solve them. There is no problem that
does not have a solution if there is an Iraqi
government of national unity. Moreover, Iraq is not
a weak country. The neighbors can create problems
for us and we can do the same to them if things do
reach this point. We do not want them to reach the
point where we create problems for each other. If
Iran allows itself to interfere in Karbala because
it is a Shiite city and Turkey allows itself to
interfere in Karkuk, then this opens a very
dangerous door. Iraq will also have the right to
interfere in Khozestan and say there are Arabs in
Arabstan and to interfere in Iskandarun because
there are Arabs in it. We have to respect our
countries' borders and these countries' sovereignty.
THE MEETINGS WITH ARMED
GROUPS
(Awsat) You have talked about meetings between you
and Iraqi resistance leaders. What are the details
of these meetings?
(Talabani) There are no more details than
what I have already said. One day, my aides said
person called Abu-Mustafa wanted to meet me here in
this house. He was a former officer and I was
searching for him because he was one of the officers
opposed to Saddam. He came with four persons who
introduced themselves and said we are leaders of the
resistance and trust you and therefore came to your
house. They told me they had met the Americans in
Amman and here in Baghdad and were on the verge of
reaching results but stopped the contacts because of
what they heard about the US-Iranian contacts. Their
emphasis was that they saw the Iranian danger
greater than the coalition forces' danger. I advised
them to continue the relationship with the Americans
and said you might probably reach a result. I
encouraged them to do so. The second time, persons
from Al-Anbar came to me and said we too have
relations with the resistance. I welcomed them as
Iraqis. I am the president of all the Iraqis and my
door is open to all. I received letters from Iraqi
citizen Barzan al-Tikriti and Tariq Aziz about being
treated while in jail and I sent a message to the
prime minister and he responded to their requests.
This is my duty to the citizen and they still have
the citizenship right. This is my way in life.
(Awsat) What would you do if you received a letter
from Saddam Husayn?
(Talabani) I would read it well and if he
needed help, like treatment, I would help him even
though I fought him until the last day of his rule.
He used to exclude me from all the amnesty decision
and say all except this traitor agent Jalal Talabani.
But this does not mean that we should abandon our
humanity and our love for our people. We have to
open a new page of tolerance in Iraq and end the era
of butchering and repression. The former president
has the right to talk in the court and the judge has
the right to pass the fair sentence and implement
it.
(Awsat) Did a dialogue take place between the US
administration and the Iranians?
(Talabani) This did not happen. I was
supposed to receive the Iranian delegation and take
part in the dialogue and was ready for this. I hope
that this dialogue will take place.
RELATIONS WITH ARAB
COUNTRIES
(Awsat) How do you describe your relations with the
Arab countries?
(Talabani) Very good. We have special with
Jordan and more than special with Saudi Arabia and
with Egypt, Syria, Kuwait, Bahrain, Algeria, and all
the Arab countries.
(Awsat) Are you optimistic?
(Talabani) Very. I am always optimistic.
(Awsat) You were 18 years old when you were in the
Kurdish revolution's central council. Are you not
tired of politics?
(Talabani) By God I am tired. I cannot be
with my family. It was on rare occasions that I was
with all members of my family, like new year's eve.
Aawsat com
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