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After six years of challenge and change both in
Turkey and in Turkish-European Union relations,
outgoing Ambassador of the Netherlands in Ankara
Sjoerd Gosses gave his impressions of the most
critical moments of modern Turkish history and
potential obstacles on Turkey's long road to EU
membership.
In an interview yesterday with TNA, just before
leaving Turkey, Gosses reiterated his country's
support for the start of accession talks. "The
Netherlands will stick to last December's EU summit
decision," he said. "We don't see a good reason why
we shouldn't start negotiations with Turkey on Oct.
3."
On French politicians' recent comments on
reservations towards Turkish full membership, Gosses
said, "France could be worrying about the membership
of a big and powerful country."
Gosses' secret formula for Turkey's EU accession:
"To create a country where there aren't many
imbalances."
From this perspective, he touched on the recent
debate about the "Kurdish problem," fired by Prime
Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's recent statements in
Diyarbakir. He praised the Turkish premier's latest
moves, saying, "That's what Erdogan has done and not
only once but on various occasions. This is the
first step towards creating new thinking on a
problem."
He also listed the Turkish government's homework for
carrying Turkey to full EU membership: "Ending
terrorism and restoring the peace; the distribution
of prosperity to the whole country, and developing
an adequate educational to train young people --
Turkey's human resources -- well."
Here is TNA's full
interview with Dutch Ambassador Gosses:
TNA: What's the
latest EU position towards Turkey's membership? What
does Turkey still need to do?
Gosses: For the start of negotiations, Turkey has
done what we agreed on at last December's summit.
The Netherlands will stick to this decision. We
don't see a good reason why we shouldn't start
negotiations with Turkey on Oct. 3. We knew that
Turkey had to sign the Ankara Protocol and it did.
And it was clear from the beginning that Turkey
would make a declaration on the non-recognition of
Greek Cyprus. My prime minister also made it clear
that the signing of the Ankara Protocol doesn't by
itself constitute a formal recognition of the
[Greek] 'Republic of Cyprus.' But it's the first
step on the way towards a normalization of relations
between Turkey and the 25 EU member states. It's
also an undeniable fact that Cyprus is a part of the
EU. You may not like it but it's a fact and facts
have to be acknowledged.
TNA: Though we
haven't heard this from Greek Cyprus or Greece,
France has challenged Turkey's bid over the
non-recognition. Why are the French behaving this
way?
Gosses: I'm not
the French ambassador but France is worried about
more EU accession. In fact, in France contributory
factors that could explain the negative referendum
results on the EU constitution were EU enlargement
and the future start of EU negotiations with Turkey.
The Turkey factor in the French referendum was much
clearer than in the Dutch referendum. There's a
political fact that the French public is worried
about a larger EU and the role of France in the EU.
TNA: Will there
be competition with France if Turkey becomes an EU
member?
Gosses: Turkey
is bigger than France. The Netherlands is not that
worried by Turkey's membership. But in the case of
France, it's worried that such a big and powerful
country will join.
'Framework document can only be changed unanimously'
TNA: Before the
start of talks, we have still the problem of
framework agreement in front of us.
Gosses: The
framework agreement is out. It's a photocopy of the
agreement we made last Dec. 17. That's good because
it can't give encouragement to member states that
want to make trouble. .
TNA: But there
are still some attempts by member countries to
change the draft of the framework document prepared
by the commission
Gosses: But
changes can only be made unanimously. What people
don't realize is that unanimity can be seen as a
burden but sometimes it plays a protective role.
TNA: So can we
think that your country, the Netherlands, will
defend Turkey at the upcoming EU meetings in terms
of not changing the draft?
Gosses: Of
course. The document prepared by the commission is a
good one.
TNA: Which
chapters will be the most problematic for Turkey to
close during the accession talks?
Gosses: The
negotiations will be mostly a technical process, not
very visible, run largely by the EU Commission in
close consultation with EU member states. All I know
is that it's important for Turkey to make its
priorities. Turkey wishes to conclude some chapters
before the end of the year. Politically, this is
logical. The commission isn't against it either.
One of the most difficult chapters in the
negotiations over the last decade has been
agriculture. This will also be the case for Turkey
as it involves decisions taken regarding so many
people's lives and the economy. Europeans, on the
other hand, are busy with their common agricultural
policy. We still have some decisions left to take,
like how much to spend on common agricultural
policies in the future.
Another question is whether we could absorb another
large agricultural country like Poland.
The environment is another complicated chapter
because it's not a part of thinking in Turkey and
also the country is so large.
Copenhagen criteria, an endless process
TNA: Turkish
officials, especially Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul,
repeatedly say that Turkey has already fulfilled all
the Copenhagen criteria …
Gosses: Let's be
fair, the Copenhagen criteria are never finished.
This is not true only for Turkey but also for the
current EU member states. Lots of member countries,
from time to time, are surprised by the acquis
communautaire. We, almost all of member states, have
lost lawsuits opened against the EU in several
areas. So the Copenhagen criteria aren't over even
when you're in.
TNA: Are there
still some steps to take? What are the main problems
that Turkey will face during its accession talks?
Gosses: I'm very
impressed with the progress made and the speed with
which Turkey put the Copenhagen criteria into order.
It was a development that nobody really expected.
The reform process went very smoothly, very fast,
and was in depth. But when we talk about the
Copenhagen criteria, we mean democracy and the rule
of law. There's always work to be done, both for
current and future member states.
From this point of view, we can say that the Turkish
economy is going well, although the employment
problem persists. But, on the whole, the Turkish
economy underwent huge improvements last year.
Turkey has become a center of attraction for
European investors. It's becoming a serious economic
partner for EU countries. But employment remains an
important problem for the government to solve.
TNA: But, as you
said, some steps still need to be taken to fulfill
the Copenhagen criteria. What are the main areas
that the Turkish government should pay more
attention to?
Gosses: We can
talk about ending terrorism and restoring peace,
prosperity for the whole country, and a
redistribution of wealth. Also, education is
extremely important. It's a key area. Young people,
Turkey's human resources, have to be well trained.
The 'Kurdish problem'
TNA: You
recently visited the southeast. What are your
impressions from your visit?
Gosses: I was
one of the first ambassadors to visit the southeast
in May 2000 after the fighting was more or less over
after the capture of the leader of the terrorist
Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) Abdullah Ocalan and
the PKK's activities were terminated. I went there
to see the situation myself and I've always had a
big interest in that part of Turkey. It's a large
part of country and after the terrorist period there
was a lot of resentment and bitterness. Also there
are many people who were affected by those events.
So I saw, and see, Turkey as a future member of the
EU. We need a harmonious member state and we know
from experience that these internal conflicts are
difficult and painful. It's logical that the EU
takes a keen interest in these matters. The EU's
policy is to optimize chances for a successful
accession. One of the reasons why the EU has the
Copenhagen criteria is to force a country to reach a
certain stage. The chances for successful EU
integration are optimal both economically and in
terms of human rights.
Europeans' close interest in the southeast
TNA: Why are you
deeply interested in the southeast of Turkey? Is it
the cultural differences, terrorism, or is it just
for social or economic reasons?
Gosses: My
interest is that if you're serious about EU
accession, you need a country that has no domestic
conflict. A country that's more or less homogenous.
What you need to achieve before accession is to
create a country where there aren't many imbalances.
From that point of view, the interest is the quality
of the country as a whole. There are economic
reasons but this isn't the case in Turkey. For
instance, the EU should take into consideration a
country's economic development, the distribution of
income etc. It's better for the EU to have a country
that has relative and general prosperity than to
have an unbalanced prosperity. This not only goes
for the economy but also for political and social
conditions. Not only the southeast but also the
northeast feel that it's behind and neglected, and
sometimes people say that they don't even know if
they belong to the rest of the country.
In April, I went to the southeast and met with a
number of surprises. The first one was that we
noticed that the soldiers were back on the streets
and people were desperate. They had a period of
peace and relative prosperity and had hope for the
future and a better life. But in April they were
disappointed again and were asking themselves what
would happen to them because it looked as if nothing
had changed because the 'bad old days' were back
again.
The second thing we discovered is why we didn't know
about the situation there. Apparently, you don't get
the real sense of what's going on in other parts of
Turkey when you live in Ankara. The picture of the
situation in the southeast isn't clear.
The third thing that has already been started by EU
President Britain is to develop a dialogue with the
people to change the feeling of inability to change
and to find a solution to this problem. My position
as the representative of the EU in the southeast was
to give a few messages to the Kurdish people.
'Kurdish people should take responsibility in
Turkish EU bid'
1) One should not expect from the EU a sort of
support for political emancipation, and I added that
the EU stands for integration not disintegration.
This is the political line of the EU.
2) Don't ever count on EU support for violence or
terror. This isn't an EU goal. It's a dead end. You
won't get support for this.
3) I also asked them what is going to be the
participation from this part of Turkey in the
country's EU bid in order to prepare the country for
accession. Because the southeast is an important
part of the country. How will the participation of
the southeast materialize? Because the whole of the
country should be preparing for EU accession. I also
underlined that Turkey needs them.
I also told them that if they participate in that
process their children should not only speak Kurdish
but also should speak good Turkish or English or
whatever. Kurdish is excellent and the EU has clear
views on that, but I meant that even if they like
their language, they should learn the officially
recognized language in Turkey.
Debate over responsibilities
TNA: The
'Kurdish problem' debate seems to have been fired by
your speech at a dinner with the Turkish premier in
June.
Gosses: What I
tried to do is to start a debate on the
responsibilities. This is not only the
responsibility of the government or the state but
also the responsibility of the civil society of the
southeast. We had a discussion with Erdogan on the
participation and civil involvement in this process.
TNA: How do you
see the situation in the southeast? Is it a
'Kurdish,' minority, community, or personal problem?
Gosses: There
should be a clear separation between the 'Kurdish'
and 'terrorism' problems, as it's been reformulated
by the prime minister. It's very dangerous to put
everything together, in one basket. Because by doing
that you may imply that every Kurdish person living
there is connected to terror. The majority of the
people living in other parts of Turkey have nothing
to do with terrorism. So it's extremely dangerous to
put them together.
Rising nationalism in Turkey
TNA: While
talking about Kurdish problem, we should also touch
on the rising nationalism in Turkey. The recent
events in the Black Sea region and the Aegean, the
reaction of the people to Kurdish-origin people are
examples of this. What do you think about the rising
nationalism within Turkey.
Gosses: This is
bad news but it doesn't only happen in Turkey. It's
a global issue, you see it even in the Netherlands.
Now, nationalism is coming back to the political
arena everywhere. In many countries, you see the
extreme wings of the political spectrum as a newborn
nationalism. It's obviously a dangerous development.
TNA: As for the
rise of nationalism in Turkey, do you think that EU
had a hand in this by its persistent demands for a
solution to the Kurdish issue?
Gosses: No, I
don't think so. It's normal for the EU to say,
'Look, everyone has a role to play in the
modernization and development of Turkey.' It's not
only Ankara, people from left to right, south to
north should make an effort.
Breaking other taboos …
TNA: Do you
think that the latest mover of Prime Minister
Erdogan was enough, or are there other steps that
should be taken?
Gosses: I've
been in Turkey for six years and it's the first time
for breaking the taboos. You can discuss things now
that were unthinkable to discuss six years ago.
That's what the prime minister has done and not only
once but on various occasions. This is the first
step to create new thinking on a problem. He has
reformulated the issue by using a very simple thing
[by talking about a 'Kurdish issue or a problem'].
That's the thing we have been awaiting for a long
time. Because you're creating a debate on that
issue. When I first came to Turkey in 1999, my
general observation was that it was not politically
correct to talk about the bad Ottoman past. If
you're not willing to talk about your history, then
you will have problems about your present and
future.
TNA: Your words
reminded me of the report of a Dutch deputy in the
European Parliament, Joost Ostlander, describing
Kemalist ideology as the main obstacle to progress
in Turkish democracy …
-Yes. Also the nature of the regime in Turkey isn't
an easy subject, and it's supposed to be good. All
things you refer to as Kemalism [are things] of
which Europeans don't know so much. They started a
debate on the nature of the situation in Turkey and
in particular on the relation between the state and
citizens. On the Copenhagen criteria, basically they
refer to this situation [the relationship between
the state and its citizens]. All these became topics
of relations both with the Europeans and internally
in Turkey. That has changed, and in that sense
Turkey is a different country than six years ago.
Civilian-military relations
TNA: Concerning
the civilian-military relationship, could the
military in Turkey be less influential in state
decision-making while terrorism continues?
Gosses: Nobody
thinks that Turkey shouldn't deal with the threat of
terrorism. The question was different. It had
something to do with the institutional relations
between the government and the military. It was a
question of who was in charge. And that's a
political question, not a military one.
For example the Kurdish issue looked as if it was
all blocked. The prime minister spoke the magic
words. In a way, he's broken the stagnation on the
problem. That will also take place with other
important problems.
TNA: Your
country, the Netherlands, sponsored a workshop on
this question of the civilian-military relationship.
And the report prepared at the end of the work fired
huge debates. Even some nongovernmental
organizations (NGOs), like the Center for Eurasian
Strategic Studies (ASAM), withdrew from the project.
Gosses: That was
the purpose of this project: To create a platform
for a well-prepared debate by people who have
knowledge about the issue.
But I should note that the civilian-military
relationship is not only a problem of Turkey. It was
also a problem during the membership process of
Poland, so there is experience on how to handle the
problem.
TNA: Thank you
for this interview. What would you like to say as
your last word to us?
Gosses: I'm
going with very good impressions from your country
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