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SPIEGEL: Mr. President, Saddam Hussein's
guards say that he still believes he is the rightful
ruler of Iraq and that he is considering making
peace with United States President George W. Bush.
As his successor, what do you think?
Talabani: Those
are the delusions of a man who has suffered total
defeat and no longer has any idea of how isolated he
is. Even sheikhs from his own clan have
disassociated themselves from him. It's the classic
fate of a dictator who is out of touch with his
people and reality.
SPIEGEL: The government wants to put Saddam
on trial later this summer, but the Americans are
slowing things down. When will the dictator stand
before his earthly judge?
Talabani: Prime
Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari can speed up this case
if he wants to, but the decision ultimately lies
with the Iraqi judiciary. We have no quarrel with
the Americans in this regard.
SPIEGEL: Will he receive the death penalty?
Talabani: I'm a
lawyer, but even if I were his judge, I would have
to wait until the trial is over before I would
pronounce a judgment. Of course, if you ask the
people, the majority will be in favor of executing
him.
SPIEGEL: But many Iraqis say that while
Saddam was a gruesome dictator, the air-conditioning
worked from morning to night during his
dictatorship, and they were able to send their
children to school without having to fear for their
lives.
Talabani: You
paint a misleading picture. By the time we lost the
Kuwait war, there was no power in many parts of the
country, and Baghdad's untreated sewage was flowing
directly into the Tigris. Living conditions were
catastrophic. A doctor earned $15 a month; today he
makes several hundred. Police officers' salaries
have also increased by more than tenfold. Iraq
doesn't just consist of Ramadi and Fallujah. We have
many successes to show for ourselves.
SPIEGEL: But not when it comes to security.
There are about 70 attacks a day now. 900 people
were killed in May alone. The situation is become
more and more menacing.
Talabani: But
that doesn't prove that the terrorists are
successful. It's just evidence of their barbaric
gruesomeness. We do in fact have a big problem with
car bombs, but it's not a phenomenon that comes from
Iraq. Last Wednesday, the terrorists were bragging
that they had put together the first purely Iraqi
unit of suicide bombers. This proves that this form
of terrorism is being forced upon us.
SPIEGEL: Do you have any more specific
information about where the foreign mujahedeen are
coming from?
Talabani: It's
difficult to give you numbers, but we have arrested
people from various countries, including Pakistan
and Egypt, Palestine and Algeria. Many come from
Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia's extreme Wahhabism is a
major source of terrorism.
SPIEGEL: The United States is also accusing
Iran of sending terrorists into Iraq.
Talabani: I
don't believe that's true. Iranians are not coming.
Why should they do that now that their Shiite
brothers are ruling the country?
SPIEGEL: Who do you think pose a greater
danger in Iraq -- the foreign jihad fighters or the
Baath party loyalists?
Talabani:
Saddam's supporters are only active in limited
areas, like the Sunni triangle, where they were also
based in the past. They're not the greatest danger.
Our main problem is al-Qaeda and all its Islamist
offshoots. But we've also been very successful
against these groups. Just one year ago, they still
controlled entire cities -- including Mosul,
Fallujah, Samara. That's no longer the case today.
We've arrested hundreds of these people, including
many terrorist leaders.
SPIEGEL: Unfortunately, it hasn't really been
felt yet. You've suggested that the new government
approach the frustrated supporters of the former
state party.
Talabani: We
must make distinctions when it comes to this group.
There were Baathists who were dedicated to the old
ideals and who fought with us Kurds in the
resistance movement, even suffering serious
casualties. Even among Saddam's supporters there
were thousands of decent nationalists who were
dissatisfied but unable to do anything about it. The
fact that many of them are armed today doesn't mean
that they're terrorists -- they just want to protect
their property. We can find common ground with these
people.
SPIEGEL: An international conference on Iraq
is currently underway in Brussels. Aren't such
events nothing but symbolism, as long as the
security situation prevents people, even Iraqi
businesspeople, from investing in your country?
Talabani: That
only affects businessmen who are part of Saddam's
old clique. Go to Kurdistan or other parts of the
country and you'll see a booming economy. Go to the
markets there and you'll find things that never
existed under Saddam. A friend of mine is an
electronics wholesaler. During the dictatorship, his
weekly sales were about $100,000. Today he sells $2
million in the same amount of time. In Kurdistan,
even foreigners are investing.
SPIEGEL: Meanwhile thousands of Iraqis --
doctors, scientists, businesspeople -- are leaving
the country. What are you doing to stop this exodus?
Talabani: The
numbers are exaggerated. Ten times as many people
left Iraq under Saddam. I say that if we were to
bring back every Iraqi doctor from Great Britain,
the British healthcare system would fall apart.
SPIEGEL: The government and parliament have a
huge agenda this year. The constitution is supposed
to be finished by mid-August, a referendum is
scheduled for October, and the first election in
December. Is this a realistic timetable?
Talabani: The
talks on the constitution have been somewhat delayed
because we want to include more Sunnis in this
process. Incidentally, the United Nations Security
Council set this timetable. We are doing our best to
stick to it.
SPIEGEL: There's also been a great deal of
debate over how much longer US troops should remain
in the country. General John Vines has said that
20,000 soldiers could be withdrawn after the
election, while some politicians in Washington favor
increasing troop strength.
Talabani: I'm in
favor of reducing the number of American troops. In
return, we should build up the Iraqi army. If the
Americans want to stay longer, they could withdraw
to individual bases -- the way it is in Germany.
Security in the country is the Iraqis' business.
SPIEGEL: Hairdressers, artists and musicians
are being killed in Baghdad these days -- just
because Islamists see their work as frivolous. Do
you understand the concerns of many of your fellow
Iraqis that a religious government could establish
Islamic law, or Sharia?
Talabani: Iraq
will never be an Islamist state. Far from all Iraqi
women wear headscarves, and alcohol is served in
Baghdad's bars and cafés. On the other hand, we will
not have a secular state, because that would mean a
strict separation of state and religion. We
recognize Islam as our state religion and see Sharia
as a source of our jurisprudence.
SPIEGEL: Your rival of many years, Massud
Barzani, is demanding a greater role for the Kurds,
and he wants to bar the Iraqi army from entering
Kurdistan.
Talabani: The
Kurds have a lot of influence. I'm president,
Barzani is president of the Kurdistan region, and
Iraq's foreign minister is also a Kurd. As far as
the army is concerned, there is no convincing reason
to transfer troops to the north.
SPIEGEL: Do you dream of an independent
Kurdistan?
Talabani: No. I
dream of a prosperous, progressive, cultivated
Kurdistan. Poets can dream that other dream, but as
politicians we must be realistic. Imagine we Kurds
were to declare our independence, and Iraq, Iran,
Turkey and Syria would impose a blockade on us. How
would be able to enter or leave this country?
SPIEGEL: The Kurds, and you personally, are
considered America's most reliable partners in Iraq.
But haven't your allies made a series of mistakes?
Talabani:
America liberated us from dictatorship, and now we
have friends we can trust. But of course America
made mistakes, especially here in central Iraq,
among the sheikhs and tribal leaders. Think of the
arrest of Mohsen Abdul-Hamid, the head of the
Islamic Party, who is a good man and whom I support.
SPIEGEL: Even US officials are now
complaining that Washington never had a
comprehensive plan for the time after Saddam.
Talabani: Yes,
but we shouldn't be unfair. We Iraqis have also made
mistakes. Immediately after the war, General Jay
Garner said to us: Put together a government and
we'll recognize it tomorrow. But we were unable to
come to terms with one another. Or look at the
Sunnis, who ruled this country for centuries: They
boycotted the elections.
SPIEGEL: You were long considered a friend of
Syria, but your relationship with Damascus has
cooled considerably in recent weeks. What are your
charges against Syria?
Talabani: I am
still a friend of Syria. President Bashar Assad has
just invited me to Damascus, and I will take him up
on his invitation. But we have a problem with the
Syrian press, which disparages our government as a
"toy of the Americans" and downplays terrorism in
our country.
SPIEGEL: What has to happen to end this
terrorism?
Talabani: If the
current government makes the right decisions, the
horror could be over this year. But there is also
another condition: our neighboring countries must
refrain from anything that could benefit the
terrorists. Iraq has become an international center.
Until now, up 70 of them have been coming into the
country every day. We must finally put an end to
this influx.
INTERVIEW: VOLKHARD WINDFUHR, BERNHARD ZAND
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan
www.spiegel.de
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