|
Following is a transcript
of Armitage’s interview with NPR:
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Office of the
Spokesman, January 14, 2005
INTERVIEW
Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage
On National Public Radio's Morning Edition with
Steve Inskeep
January 13, 2005, Washington, D.C., (2:00 p.m. EST)
MR. INSKEEP: All right. Well, let's get right
into it here. And I want to ask a little bit about
the future, although I realize you're stepping away
from the picture here, and I want to start by
talking about Iraq, if I can. I mean, as you're
aware, there was a lot of comment about whether the
United States was prepared for what happened, the
aftermath of the invasion of Iraq. Now you're coming
up to another big milestone, these elections. And
I'd like to know if you feel that the U.S. and its
allies are prepared for the aftermath of those
elections, whatever they may be.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I think these will be historic elections. There are
some questions about the number of Sunnis who will
be able to participate, but we and our coalition
alliance, as well as the Iraqis, are doing our best
to try to get security in such a condition that
people will be able to vote if they want to, and
afterward, we'll see where we are. Clearly, we don't
see the election itself as a pivotal point. It is a
part of the process. In fact, one could say it's the
beginning of a process, the process where Iraqis
will write a constitution and at the end of the year
will actually vote for a permanent government.
MR. INSKEEP: Analysts will suggest that it's
possible that this could lead to more civil discord
rather than less. I just wonder if you see that as a
possibility that you have to prepare for.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, I've noted that civil war has been averted and
avoided thus far, even with the stated intensions of
Zarqawi to bring it about. And so I think civil war
is not in the offing, but I think most in the
government expect the violence to continue long
after these elections.
MR. INSKEEP: That's interesting because some
people would look at the situation now and describe
it as a kind of civil war.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I think the Shia have been very restrained. The
Sunnis are attacking everyone. The Kurds have been
restrained in the north by their own behavior, but
not constrained by the coalition. And I think that
shows the vast majority of Iraqis consider
themselves Iraqis first and then Shia or Sunni or
Turkoman or Chaldean or Syrian or Kurd latterly.
MR. INSKEEP: Because this will go on for a
while, is it safe to assume that the time when U.S.
forces can substantially withdraw is when Iraqi
forces are prepared to take over a lot of the
fighting?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, I think that we have to put all our effort in
to getting the Iraqi troops prepared so that we can
hasten the day that coalition forces can remove
themselves from Iraq. It would be irresponsible to
prematurely leave Iraq, I think, and leave it in
this situation of some chaos.
MR. INSKEEP: Well, this is what I'm wondering
about then. I was speaking to a U.S. military
officer who has served in Iraq, someone, I should
say, who supports U.S. policy there but also adds
that in the view of a lot of military officers, the
longer U.S. forces stay in Iraq, you get into a
situation of diminishing returns. Resistance builds
up. The longer you are there, the more resentment
you build up, and that there is a time limit beyond
which you really can't go.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I think, as a general matter, I would agree with his
suggestion, but I don't think anyone can determine
what that time limit is. There is a great irony
here, and I will be a little irreligious here. The
irony is that our friends in Iraq, that is those
Iraqis who want us to succeed, in a way, need us to
leave, and our enemies, those who are fighting
against other Iraqis, need us to stay because in a
way it justifies their continued jihad against us.
If you look at every single opinion poll, you'll
find that Iraqis have some resentment, but
overwhelmingly, they realize that coalition forces
are necessary now to provide security; every single
poll has shown the same thing.
MR. INSKEEP: Some of the parties that are
participating in the elections have talked about
demands for the U.S. to go as soon as the elections
are held.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Now, politics does rear its head in Iraq, just as it
does here in Washington, and you will note that
those same parties who have in the past stated their
intention to ask the coalition forces to leave have
started to change their presentations a little bit
and acknowledge that they never put an actual time
limit on this departure. So I think you see some
pre-election run-up and rhetoric and afterward I
think you will see a little different story.
MR. INSKEEP: Do you think that U.S. allies,
who, as you said, need us to leave, also feel
strongly that the U.S. needs to stay and support
them for a period?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I don't think there is any question. That's why I
was referring to polls that show, yes, people don't
want foreigners on their soil, but at the same time,
the greatest, vast majority realize they have to
have the coalition forces to provide security until
Iraqis can stand up in sufficient numbers with
sufficient leadership to provide for their own
security.
MR. INSKEEP: That's another question,
granting that you're not at the Pentagon, but as a
veteran, as someone who has a lot of information
come across his desk, what is your judgment of the
state of training of the Iraqi forces?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I guess the best way to answer it is to look at
Fallujah in April, at the recently completed
Fallujah activities and the activities of the Iraqis
who fought alongside. In April, Iraqi units, by and
large, did extraordinarily poorly in Fallujah and I
think they were judged as having failed. In the
recently completed Fallujah operations, Iraqi
battalions fought at a much higher level of combat
than in the past and by commanders, our commanders'
accounts, performed much more credibly.
So I think you can clearly see we're on the right
path. Now, the question would be, as Mark Twain used
to remind us, even though you're on the right track,
you can get run over if you're not going fast
enough. And that's why the President has asked
General Luck and his colleagues to go out and assess
the situation, see if we're training as rigorously
and in the best possible way these Iraqis.
MR. INSKEEP: General Luck is the American
general who is leading kind of a mission over there
to review U.S. policy on Iraq?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, assess -- you're being a little fast and loose
-- simply to assess the training of military and the
security forces. It's not a review of all U.S.
policy. It is a career military officer's review.
MR. INSKEEP: Okay. Having been through
military training yourself, do you think it is
really possible to speed up the training of a highly
skilled military force?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, we've seen that Iraqis know how to shoot
weapons and they know how tactics are undertaken. I
think that the answer to the question lies with
whether we're successful in standing up a sufficient
number of leaders to lead the troops. There are no
end of people who are signing up, even in the face
of great viciousness, to be police officers, to be
serving in the Iraqi National Guard or the army. We
have to find sufficient leaders who will be worthy
of these young men.
MR. INSKEEP: Who take even longer to train
than, perhaps, soldiers do -- infantrymen.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, some would say leaders are born and not made.
I think they're born and made, and so it will take a
while to identify them. That's the real key, to
identify people who have leadership capability.
MR. INSKEEP: A couple of other questions, if
I might.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Sure.
MR. INSKEEP: In the years before you came to
work here at the State Department, you gave a speech
in which you were quoted as saying, I wrote this
down, "being responsible means occasionally pissing
people off." In the light of the policy debates of
the last several years, I wonder if you could just
describe how it is that you attempt to move the
government, move the bureaucracy, when you had
differences of opinion about which way to go on
major issues?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, differences of opinion are something you as a
citizen and I as a citizen should value in your
government. You really want it. I can assure you of
that. You don't want a government that sees
everything the same way. That would be bad -- it
would lead to bad governance, in my view.
We try to -- there's an old Washington saying,
"Where you sit is where you stand." We sit here in
the Department of State and our equities are to make
sure we properly represent our view of the proper
foreign policy path for the president. And he will
make a decision if he agrees with us or not.
Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. And
sometimes he sort of agrees.
But if we faithfully represent our bureaucracy here,
then we've done our job. When we've presented a
president with a full menu of options and he is the
only nationally elected leader, he'll make a choice
based on what he's heard, and we'll march on. And if
we don't happen to come out on top on any particular
issue, tomorrow's another day.
MR. INSKEEP: There have been instances in
which you, or your boss, Secretary Powell, have been
seen as making public statements about North Korea,
about the Middle East, that seemed more moderate or
at least at odds with other members of the
government. And I'm just asking about practicalities
here. Is that one of the ways that you try to move
policy, you get the viewpoint out there and see if
it sticks?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Using the bully pulpit that Washington affords one
is, of course, a way to try to noogie the policy
agenda forward. But we don't try to create scrimps
and false impressions. When Secretary Powell speaks
or when Rich Armitage speaks, we're putting out our
views. And we will do so respectfully, of course.
This is what the President paid us for, to bring him
our views. And of course, he can agree with us or
not as he chooses.
MR. INSKEEP: You said a moment ago that it is
not valuable to have a government where everybody
thinks the same way. Some have perceived the changes
in the cabinet, including Secretary Powell's
departure and your departure, as something of a
narrowing of the viewpoints that will be available
within this Administration in the second term.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, I think it's a little premature to make the
judgment seeing that Dr. Rice and her colleagues
haven't had the first moment in office as Secretary
of State.
I would note that both she and Mr. Zoellick, who is
going to replace me, are seen as having views that
are quite similar to Armitage or Secretary Powell.
MR. INSKEEP: And you said, "Where you sit is
where you stand." Do you think that Condoleezza Rice
might represent a somewhat different point of view
because she's over here at the State Department?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, I think, first of all, she's an accomplished
academic and policymaker who has a lot of years of
experience under her belt. She doesn't just sit here
and mouth what comes up from the bureaucracy any
more than Secretary Powell or I did.
We have our own views and we tried to infuse those
views into the bureaucracy. I'm sure Dr. Rice will
do the same thing. And there will be a meld. And
that'll be quickly.
MR. INSKEEP: A couple of other questions, if
I might.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Sure.
MR. INSKEEP: And I don't know where we are in
terms of how much time we've spent, but two or three
more questions --
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
You've got all the time you want.
MR. INSKEEP: (Laughter.) That's very kind.
Thank you very much.
Moving back to Iraq for a moment. Before the
invasion of Iraq, it was suggested that a change in
administration in Iraq, entirely aside from whatever
good it might do in Iraq, might also change the
entire Middle East, particularly the Arab-Israeli
conflict. Now that some time has passed, almost two
years, do you think that that's working out?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, let's take a look. You're about to see a
historic, what I describe as a historic election at
least in Iraq on January 30th. It'll be messy and
probably won't be pretty, but you can be certain
historic.
But throughout the whole Middle East, I think any
observer would have to note that there are the winds
of change. You have elections in Saudi Arabia coming
up - (inaudible). You have education reform. You
have more transparency in economic views throughout
the Middle East. So there is a lot going on. It
wasn't all brought about at all by the invasion of
Iraq. But it certainly assisted some to remove what
was a deadweight and a threat to the region, hence,
Saddam Hussein, to allow these new winds of change
to kind of blow in the region.
MR. INSKEEP: Can you think of one particular
breeze that you would say is directly related to the
change in government in Iraq?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Yeah. I think that our friends in Kuwait feel freer
to open up their society. The same is true in
Bahrain. And clearly, the -- there is no question
that what has been blossoming for the past 12 years
in Kurdistan that is now free from the threat of
Saddam Hussein has been made known to the entire
Middle East and I think that's having a salutary
effect.
MR. INSKEEP: Is there any advice that you
have given to Condoleezza Rice and Bob Zoellick as
they prepare to take over?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, any advice that I gave to Dr. Rice will
necessarily remain between Dr. Rice and myself. She
was kind enough to spend some time with me and I
chatted with her, as I always have, frankly and
clearly.
MR. INSKEEP: Let me rephrase, if I can. Oh,
you've got a --
(Phone call.)
MR. INSKEEP: I caused you to miss the
Secretary?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
That's all right. I'll see him in a few minutes.
He's the only one that uses that line.
MR. INSKEEP: I'm so sorry.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
He's in the car coming back.
MR. INSKEEP: You should have shut me up. You
don't have to --
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I didn't hear it. I was concentrating. You were
going to rephrase the question.
MR. INSKEEP: I'm trying to remember. Oh yes,
yes. You were saying any advice --
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I said I wouldn't give -- tell you what I told Dr.
Rice.
MR. INSKEEP: Let's put it this way. This
Administration moves on, the country moves on. I
wonder if there's one piece of advice or one word of
caution that you would offer to people as they move
ahead.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
No, I've spoken to those who wanted to speak with me
about these matters. I will tell you what Secretary
Powell and I are going to keep in the forefront of
our minds, as we leave this first Bush
Administration, and that is something we've learned
in Washington over the years. When you remove your
fist from a pail of water, there's no hole. It's a
good thing to keep in front of your mind.
MR. INSKEEP: I'm trying to work out that
analogy there --
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Think about it.
MR. INSKEEP: The point is you're saying that
you won't be missed?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
No, the government continues, the people's business
continues to be done, and those who follow us are
faithful and loyal servants of both the country and
the President, and I think the nation won't miss a
beat.
MR. INSKEEP: Do you really think that there
won't be a particular viewpoint that is less
strongly represented in Washington because of the
change in personalities?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
We'll have to see. But as far as I know, no one
enforced a gag order on Secretary Powell or on me in
the future, so there will be plenty of voices. You
were referring earlier to people who were speaking
out about this or that aspect of Iraq, and I note
that you were clearly referring to people in think
tanks or former government servants who are out
speaking. There will be plenty of opportunities for
opinions, not to worry.
MR. INSKEEP: Okay. Before I cut this off, let
me just ask Bruce, our editor who has been listening
in, I'm just wondering if you have any questions
that you'd like to put through.
A PARTICIPANT: A couple of questions.
MR. INSKEEP: Okay.
A PARTICIPANT: If, after January 30th, whoever is in
power in Iraq asks the U.S. to leave, what do we do?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Do you want to ask the question?
MR. INNSKEEP: Well, I will. I thought I had, but I
will again. But, you know, I think I didn't.
Granting that you think that the new government will
want Americans to stay, what if the new government
asks the U.S. to leave?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Then we would leave.
MR. INNSKEEP: Even if it's a short timetable?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
If the government of a sovereign Iraq asked us to
leave, we would leave, period.
MR. INNSKEEP: Would that be a nightmare?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
You'd have to ask the Government of Iraq. We have
testified -- my colleague Paul Wolfowitz and I --
we've said very clearly to the U.S. Congress, if
that circumstance exists, then we would leave,
period. No qualifications, no weasel words. You've
got the answer to your question.
MR. INNSKEEP: Bruce? Back to you, Bruce.
A PARTICIPANT: I mean, Secretary Powell was in the
Reagan Administration. He was Secretary Weinberger's
military aide. You were there with him. I mean, we
know that administrations have fights between the
Secretary of Defense and State. Now you've seen that
one and you've seen this Administration. Could you
compare them?
MR. INSKEEP: Go ahead. Go ahead, Mr. Armitage.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I used to, along with Secretary Powell, who was
military assistant to Secretary Weinberger, we would
have home-and-home series breakfasts every Wednesday
morning with Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger,
and we would sit down very cordially and then
disagree on the breakfast menu, and it only went
downhill from there. So I think the point here is
many in Washington want to make all these "battles"
personal. We sit and occupy different bureaucratic
ground and in order to fully identify any problem
and possible solutions for the President, it's
necessary that we have a "battle." And I haven't
found Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Powell having
any difficulty agreeing on the breakfast menu.
QUESTION: Well, that's interesting, though. The
personality conflicts may have been greater in the
Reagan Administration, but I wondered if the policy
differences, in fact, have been greater in this
Administration, even though you can talk about them
politely.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I think you've got to refresh your memory. You'll
remember in the arms control war particularly there
were very bitter, bitter struggles, many forests
were felled so reporters could write about these
epic struggles. This was without, by the way, two
wars. It was the backdrop of the Cold War, but not
two active wars. So these "struggles" are necessary,
and, they're a good thing for our government.
QUESTION: Do you think there have been two, or even
more, fundamental viewpoints of the U.S. role in the
world expressed in this Administration?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
I don't think they were fundamental differences. I
think they were differences of sometimes timing,
differences of emphasis, or em-PHA-sis, depending on
which side of the argument you're on. But I don't
think there were fundamental differences. A lot of
things changed after 9/11 in this country as a whole
and in the government, and I don't think there were
the huge differences of opinion about where we want
this nation to be or how to use all of our
instruments of national power for the greater good
of this country. But there were timing questions and
emphasis questions.
MR. INSKEEP: And important timing and
emphasis questions. Do you get tough on North Korea
and talk tough to North Korea, or do you negotiate,
for instance?
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Well, we have to do both, which is what we've done.
We made it very clear we were not going to be
fooled, as the previous administration was fooled,
by faulty agreements; that we would negotiate in
good faith and we've sat down at the six-party talks
with them and we're ready to do it again when they
come to the conclusion that they want to do it. So
it's necessary sometimes to get people's attention.
MR. INSKEEP: Deputy Secretary Armitage,
thanks very much.
DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:
Thank you.
http://usinfo.state.gov
Top |
® 